Open World Conference of Workers

In Defense of Trade Union Independence & Democratic Rights

China

Interview with Hong Kong Labor Activists

Two Hong Kong labor activists engaged in the struggle for workers' rights and independent trade unions have given this interview with the aim of having it delivered to the Berlin Conference Organizing Committee and circulated as a preparatory document for the Berlin Conference.

They have requested that a special point on the situation of the Chinese working class and the struggle for independent trade union be placed on the agenda of the Berlin Conference.

These activists are Apo Leong, an organizer of the Asian Monitor Resource Centre (AMRC), and Chan Kai Wai, editor of Change, a publication of the Hong-Kong Christian Industrial Committee (CIC). They are both active in Labour Rights In China (LARIC), a coalition to defend workers' rights that includes the Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions (affiliated to the ICFTU), the Chinese Labour Bulletin (edited by Han Donfang), the AMRC, and the CIC.

o Question: What is the current situation of the Chinese working class?

o Responses: The absolute number of state workers has been declining over the last five years. The major reasons are the government's downsizing and lay-off measures. The official figure of jobs lost was around 20 million at the end of last year. More and more workers are being driven out of the state sector, which means they will have no protection in terms of medical insurance, social security, housing subsidies and other such benefits. They are driven to work in low-paid jobs with low job security in the newly formed private sector. Many of the state factories are being sold to private enterprise or have become the property of ex-Party people who exploit the workers of the state sector.

The majority of these state workers are middle-aged men and women who do not have the resources and skills to compete in this New Economy. They are deeply concerned about losing their jobs.

Workers join the new enterprises and the New Economy, but if those enterprises are not organized the workers will be faced with serious problems as they will have no protections and no collective rights whatsoever. During the past five years we have received many notices indicating an increase in work stoppages, strikes, and sit-ins by state sector workers who are demanding higher wages, an end to corruption, and the safeguarding of the social security system. Regrettably, the government has been very repressive; their intent has been to suppress workers' militancy and action in China.

o The situation is worsening by the day. Workers in the state sector used to get allowances and subsidies from the enterprise to which they were linked. That is coming to an end.

We are receiving more and more information about the growing number of workers who now have no access to social security. It is difficult for them to send their children to school because they can't afford to pay the school fees.

There is another alarming figure: the number of casualties at work. Each year, 50,000 workers lose one or several fingers. This is not because they are clumsy, but because of the terrible conditions under which they work. They receive very low wages, and so they must work for long periods of overtime; hence they are very tired.

o Question: In your opinion, what will be the consequences for the Chinese working class of the recently negotiated U.S.-China agreement over entry into the World Trade Organization (WTO)?

o Responses: The Chinese government started reforming and marketizing the economy before signing the document over entry into the WTO. They have begun implementing a line of privatization, deregulation, flexibility of labor and the dismantling of the "iron rice bowl" of the Chinese workers.

Those pushing these reforms claim that the "rigidity" of the labor market and the protection of the Chinese workers has led to low efficiency and low productivity. They claim that, as a result, China could not compete with the outside world.

This process of "reforms" is now accelerating due to China's desire to join the WTO so that it can be in tune -- as the Chinese government says -- with international norms and practices. That is why they have changed China's business laws.

The monopoly of the financial markets, for example, is still in the hands of the local business; that's why the Americans are so eager to get their hands on these funds. A lot of professionals have bought local insurance companies to take control of the health sector. Professionals are also privatizing the pension funds through all sorts of schemes. They are lining their pockets, but the poor workers who can barely afford to pay the premiums are having hard times, and they will now have to pay for their own medical expenses - including for their family members.

o It is very clear that the WTO will worsen the situation. It is clear that a lot more unemployment and a lot more horrible working conditions will be created.

After China joins the WTO, the farmers will certainly suffer more when confronted with a market fully open to the United States. Most of the farmers in the rural areas already have difficulties to survive and thus have to move to the cities. The migration of workers to the South has created a new working class with virtually no social security, health insurance and protections.

Those who can move are usually young and uneducated, which offers a huge available supply of cheap labor. Such a situation makes it more difficult for the workers to fight for their working conditions.

This migration also creates problems for the migrant workers as they grow older. Most of them are allowed to work for only a few years, up to the ages of 25 to 28 years; after which they are fired or forced to leave. For management, they are considered too old and unskilled -- and nobody knows what to do with them. Once they are in the cities most of them cannot return to the rural areas. They work on building sites or in polluted conditions. The presence of so many people in the cities in turn creates a social problem.

Presently, there are at least 20 million people from the countryside looking for a job. Most of them are very young girls who, when they find a job, have to work 12 hours a day, every day. And when they protest, the boss says: "If you are not happy, you can leave. Thousands are ready to take your job."

o There has been a lot of discussion in China around the question of joining the WTO, but regrettably most of the time this has just taken place at an academic level. We need more information to be relayed to the Chinese workers, who want to know and to understand. What we are trying to do is to interview rank-and-file workers to find out what they think. But from our own understanding, we believe that the impact of the WTO will be more negative than positive for the Chinese workers. There will be more privatization and deregulation because of the entry of multinationals, especially American ones.

o I think that when China joins the WTO some of the national industry will be attractive for investors. But in China there is a small farm agricultural system, and it will be very difficult for this sector to compete with foreign agro-business. The impact could be devastating.

The China-WTO agreement is not only an issue for workers in mainland China; it will also affect workers in Hong Kong. For instance, in the garment industry they still use the quota system. That will be abolished five years after China joins the WTO -- and most factories will have to move to mainland China.

The WTO problem is more discussed at an official level than at a rank-and-file level; we don't know to what point the people know about the negative impact of the WTO.

o The debate about the WTO has created divisions among the opposition movement, among the progressive people, among those who have been fighting for democracy in China. They have been very divided on the issue. There are those who defend the need to support the "lesser evil." They say that the Chinese Communist Party is very bad and very repressive, but that joining the WTO will open a space for more democracy.

Those of us who have learned about the plight and suffering of working people around the world under the blows of the IMF and WTO onslaught understand that these international instruments can be as bad as the CCP regime and can, in fact, co-exist with the repressive regimes -- as is the case in many countries.

o Question: How do you relate the entry of China in the WTO to the question of national sovereignty?

o Responses: On the one hand, the Chinese government keeps saying that it will preserve national sovereignty. But what does that mean when one deals with the issue of economic authority? The multinationals will be taking hold of many key industries such as communication, finance, pharmaceuticals and others. Multinationals don't talk about sovereignty but about dollars and cents.

They will pit one region into competition against another region, concentrating on the provinces where they can make the biggest profits. We agree that national sovereignty is important, but it is not an excuse for an authoritarian and oppressive regime that intends to suppress the independent labor movement.

o Some sectors put forward the argument that China's joining WTO is not only an economic issue but also a question of politics. In joining with other developing countries, China will seek to develop what they call a "third way" against the Western countries and against the former Soviet Union. It is clear that they wish to follow their own line of conduct and even to have their own transnational corporations.

At that level one can say that perhaps China will keep its sovereignty, but it is very clear that it will bring no good for the workers. At the same time, at an economic level, they will lose their autonomy to the transnational corporations, be they Chinese or foreign. Therefore I think there is a dilemma: on the one hand, politically, they want to remain the masters, but, on the other hand, it is obvious they will lose their power.

o Question: By what means are the Chinese workers fighting for their rights? As they do not have the right to form independent trade unions, what form does this fight take?

o Responses: There are an increasing number of wildcat strikes and demonstrations. Of course, they are not organized by the official unions. Workers get angry because of unpaid wages, corruption and the destruction of the social security system. These are the main reasons for these industrial actions. In the most extreme cases, workers may use dynamite or commit suicide -- but the most common actions are sit-ins, occupations of factories, and in most of the cases, they are non-violent. The middle-aged or retired people ask what we call "party people" to put pressure on the local government, against the local Communist Party units, to settle the matter.

But these local fightbacks are not connected on a bigger scale. They are isolated individual cases occurring simultaneously, without alliances or coalitions. Some attempts have been made to build such alliances, but there have not been many given the very severe repression.

o Up till now there is no strong network to coordinate these wildcat strikes and demonstrations.

o Question: In most cases, as you say, those actions are not violent and aim to put pressure on local authorities. Does that mean that in most cases the authorities negotiate and accept some of the demands?

o Responses: Yes, certainly. In some cases, in the South, the local government had to bail out the bankrupt companies in order to pacify the workers. In the state sector, management often tries to calm the workers with money.

If you take a look at the government statistics, you will see that more and more labor disputes are reported by the authorities, but at the same time you will see that the government is negotiating the wages of the higher-paid workers but rejecting the demands of the migrant workers. They see the migrants as troublesome.

The demands of the local workers are often more acceptable to the local authorities. The local authorities and the trade unions get involved, with the workers getting something through negotiation or mediation. If you see the statistics regarding mediation over wages, 80% to 85% of the cases are settled. But such a high rate of mediation results from the fact that workers have no alternative; they are forced to accept the result. Only a very small number of cases go to the courts.

o Question: Are the local and factory branches of the official trade unions more flexible than the top?

o Responses: No. The local units of the trade union are not willing to negotiate; they are told to pacify the workers. If the workers revolt, even the ACFTU officials will be in big trouble, because the senior cadre ask the local officers to make sure that everything is under control. The local officials can be removed if things are not under control.

There are cases where union chairpersons or deputies have been victimized. But these cases are very exceptional. Most of the union branches stick to the Party line, the official line. They must pacify the workers and not let the workers take to the street. That is their most important assignment.

o Question: You said that in some cases, especially in the South, the local unions are more linked to the rank-and-file workers.

o Responses: A study shows that many of the union chairpersons or deputies are relatives of the factory management. They appoint their own people. The senior union officers are most often appointed, and not elected by the ranks.

o In South China, there is some decentralization, which means that the central government cannot control everything. Here, the local labor departments can be more powerful, and usually the union will follow the local administration. But at the same time this decentralization creates space for some people, both within the trade unions and the official labor department, who wish to act in favor of the workers.

But in most cases, because the local authorities see attracting foreign investments as their main priority, they do not defend workers' rights out of fear of scaring away the foreign investors.

o Question: This interview will be circulated to trade unionists all over the world, particularly to those who are organizing the Berlin Conference in February 2002. Do you wish to convey a special message to them?

o Responses: We are looking forward to the Berlin Conference, which will provide a good forum where workers, trade unionists and activists from all over the world can share the experiences of their struggles against privatization and deregulation. It will also give us the opportunity to participate in a common discussion about the alternative strategies for fighting the WTO and IMF.

The workers will not tolerate to be the victims. They must take these matters into their hands. There is a lot of talk about free trade, but there should be more discussion about free trade unionism and about labor's fight against the neo-liberal theory and control by multinationals.

We spoke earlier about the conditions faced by the Chinese workers. The workers who are victims of such abuse and mistreatment, those who have been handicapped by an accident, they protest, they go to see the boss, they demand their rights. But to file a complaint, you need legal help and organization. Yet those who begin organizing face many problems and obstacles; they can be arrested.

It is essential for them to be aware of the fact that there is a movement fighting to support them at an international level.

o I think that China's entry in the WTO is part of globalization. Globalization moves investments to so-called poor developing countries where they can employ cheap labor because of the loose monitoring from governments

We see that exploitation of workers is not only increasing in China but also throughout the world from foreign investment, and it creates more obstacles for the workers. In that perspective, workers -- whether from developing countries or from developed countries -- are in the same boat; deregulation does not only take place in developing countries but everywhere. It is time for workers to get together and to work together to defend our own interests.

If things continue to worsen in China, more greedy investors will come to China. And this will end up adversely affecting workers' interests throughout the world. The fate of the Chinese workers is linked to the fate of the workers of the world.

If the Chinese workers do not secure their fundamental rights, such as those embodied in ILO Convention 87 and 98, that will weaken the world struggle against deregulation. Any step forward in China will help the workers of the world.

That is why the workers of the world must unite to help the Chinese workers in their struggle.

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